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Hondo's Daybill Q&A [Re-Titled]

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  • JohnJohn Member, Dealer Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    HONDO said:

    A Touch Of Larceny was first released in Sydney April 8, 1960. ( Sourced from The Film Weekly yearbook ) .

    The Big Night was first released in Sydney June 23, 1960.  ( Sourced from The Film Weekly yearbook ).

    From what I have been able to find, it is pretty much impossible to determine the last Richardson Studio daybill so it has to be an educated guess. I had always thought it was Women are Weak and that still might be true. The trouble is that the actual printing date of that poster is simply not known. We know the release date in Australia to be 1962.  It's possible that they might have been printed much earlier but we can't be absolutely certain of when. It was a very minor film so why would they print posters three years before the release date and then leave them on the shelf? We can only guess at the reason.

    All of the late 50s Richardson daybills were printed by W.E.Smith with one exception that I can find. Vertigo was printed by Robert Burton. I have always thought that there is something unusual about this daybill. A dealer in Sydney had a small stash of these daybills and I feel that it might have been printed a little bit later than many think.

    There is just a possibility that the Robert Burton printed Vertigo daybill could be the last Richardson (but its also possible that the last one could be one of the others).

    It was a great question from Sven!

    John

  • JohnJohn Member, Dealer Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    HONDO said:
    Some of the independent distributors virtually started as one man operations so their budgets wouldn't have been huge. The bookings for a lot of the independent distributors would have been limited due to the type of product they had to distribute. I lived in Newcastle ( for those who don't know the second largest city in N.S.W. ) a good part of my life and a large percentage of the product from IFD, Regent And Blake films were never released in Newcastle city or suburbs so what are the chances their product was released in smaller venues which catered more for families. I am sure whoever the printers were that designed the duotone daybills and didn't print their details ( probably out of shame ) were a lot cheaper to use than the major printers. At least David agrees on the lack of quality artists and I believe this is the number one reason for the poor quality first release colour posters that started to appear in the late 1950s which was the period Aub.Moseley a great poster artist left Robert Burton after a short stint.. When I spoke to Aub. on the telephone this year he told me that when Robert Burton decided to print movie posters around 1957 they approached him and said they would find it hard to design posters without his participation so it sounds to me that in the late 1950s there was a shortage of quality poster artists around at that time and I imagine many of the artists that designed the marvellous posters from the 1920s. 1930s, 1940s into the 1950s had retired over a periodof time leaving a void to be filled.

    I agree. Lack of quality artists was almost certainly the problem. It's a pity Aub Moseley didn't sign his work because there are some great posters in the late 50s that I feel sure were his work.
    John

  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector

    I wasn't stating exactly when the three titles were printed  only when they were released in Australia,

    I could probably post a list of a dozen titles based on U.S. and Australian release dates and the last poster printed would probably be among them. I never aimed to claim what I thought was the last poster printed as I wasn't asked this question by Sven and secondly I don't know the answer.

    Not all the late 1950s daybills were printed, apart from Vertigo, by W.E. Smith. As well as Vertigo there were a number of other titles printed by Robert Burton. At least a half a dozen spring to mind. I have thought Vertigo could be a later printing also but seeing there were others printed by Robert Burton including the year of the release and along with no other version ever appearing I ruled this out.

    I will check my notes which I have somewhere and when I do I will list the Richardson titles printed by Robert Burton printed roughly between 1958 and 1960.

    Lawrence
  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    edited December 2015
    David said:
    Newcastle maybe the second largest city in NSW but it is still only about 5% of the population of Sydney so from an independent distributors point of view that would come down to the economics of distribution which would be for many independents the demographics of the area...another reason Pancho can't find his daybills.



    O.K. Sydney city in much larger than Newcastle but the independent films were mainly released in the city of Sydney or drive-ins only and not the suburbs and on a very limited basis. This along with very limited release outside the capitol cities would possibly have  influenced the use of a cheaper produced poster. 
    Lawrence
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    edited December 2015
    It has been an extremely enjoyable read, great discussion. Thanks so much for looking into.

    The vertigo daybill is most interesting given what seems countless copies available.

    Heres ro richardson  studio!  Time for a hot drink and chocolate and another look trhough Johms richardson studio gallery. I always come back to Danger Street.

    Oh was there any particular  reason richardson studio stopped? Did Robert burton  have anything to do with it? 
  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    edited December 2015
    It is possible John Richardson who had been designing daybill posters since at least 1923 was getting along in age and just retired but I don't know the reason. I don't believe Robert Burton figured in any decision but what it is interesting his almost exclusive printer since he started in the 1920s W.E. Smith ceased printing daybills at around the same time.
    Lawrence
  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    John said:

    From what I have been able to find, it is pretty much impossible to determine the last Richardson Studio daybill so it has to be an educated guess. I had always thought it was Women are Weak and that still might be true. The trouble is that the actual printing date of that poster is simply not known. We know the release date in Australia to be 1962.  It's possible that they might have been printed much earlier but we can't be absolutely certain of when. It was a very minor film so why would they print posters three years before the release date and then leave them on the shelf? We can only guess at the reason.


    Women Are Weak printed by W.E.Smith was definitely printed in either 1959 or 1960 due to the fact 1960 was the last year W.E. Smith printed  daybills for Richardson Studios and ceased doing this at the same time as John Richardson pulled the plug on producing daybills. W.E. Smith didn't print any more film posters after 1960.
    Lawrence
  • JohnJohn Member, Dealer Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    HONDO said:
    John said:

    From what I have been able to find, it is pretty much impossible to determine the last Richardson Studio daybill so it has to be an educated guess. I had always thought it was Women are Weak and that still might be true. The trouble is that the actual printing date of that poster is simply not known. We know the release date in Australia to be 1962.  It's possible that they might have been printed much earlier but we can't be absolutely certain of when. It was a very minor film so why would they print posters three years before the release date and then leave them on the shelf? We can only guess at the reason.

    Women Are Weak printed by W.E.Smith was definitely printed in either 1959 or 1960 due to the fact 1960 was the last year W.E. Smith printed  daybills for Richardson Studios and ceased doing this at the same time as John Richardson pulled the plug on producing daybills. W.E. Smith didn't print any more film posters after 1960.
    Just curious as to how you know for sure that W.E.Smith didn't print movie posters after 1960?
    John

  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    John said:
    HONDO said:
    Women Are Weak printed by W.E.Smith was definitely printed in either 1959 or 1960 due to the fact 1960 was the last year W.E. Smith printed  daybills for Richardson Studios and ceased doing this at the same time as John Richardson pulled the plug on producing daybills. W.E. Smith didn't print any more film posters after 1960.
    Just curious as to how you know for sure that W.E.Smith didn't print movie posters after 1960?
    I have methodically researched daybill images on the internet for the last 20 years or so and through other sightings have compiled listings for all the major Australian film distributors and a lot of the independent distributors as well from the 1920s through to the 1980s but very comprehensively covering the 1940s through to 1969.  I know from this listings which distributors used which printers during this period of time and the years the product was printed and detailed lists of the titles printed by each distributor. W. E. Smith started dropping off printing product from most distributors in the late 1950s the second last major they printed daybills for was Warner Brothers which ceased in 1959 and finally Paramount in the 1960s probably the last due to the long relationship they had with the Richardson Studio lasting into 5 decades. Apart from Women Are Weak which would have been printed in 1959 or 1960 for reasons given earler as to why it wasn't released until 1962 no daybills after 1960 have ever been sighted by me  and if any were printed at least one would have turned up by now one would think. It sounds like to me that Richardson Studio and W.E.Smith decided to leave the daybill designing and printing for whatever reason at around the same time.
    Lawrence
  • JohnJohn Member, Dealer Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    That all sounds logical. Were you able to find out whether W.E.Smith were still in business as printers after 1960?
    John

  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector


    John said

    All of the late 50s Richardson daybills were printed by W.E.Smith with one exception that I  can find. Vertigo was printed by Robert Burton.


    Apart from Vertigo although I cannot at present locate my Robert Burton/ Richardson / Paramount list here are some titles printed by Robert Burton I remember. -

    The Black Orchid

    The Geisha Boy

    King Creole

    Quantrill's Raiders

    Rock - A -Bye Baby

    Also I cannot read the printers name but possibly St. Louis Blues & The Matchmaker are  Robert Burton as well.

    I'm wondering if it is possible that at around this time when Paramount, who had taken over distribution of Allied Artists product and had acquired a huge backlog of unreleased product that went to Paramount under a new di distribution agreement and with about two years of backlog product not having been released after the UA/AA Australian agreement came to an end that  W.E. Smith needed some help in the printing of the backlog of film posters for the films about to flood the marketplace and to meet deadlines set by Paramount for the completion of the printing  Robert Burton  obtained some titles in a bid to  help W.E. Smith out and meet the deadlines.

    Although W,E, Smith discontinued printing film posters in 1960 it is uncertain if they closed down altogether or continued to do general printing. I would love to know  but no luck in finding this out - yet.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

    Lawrence
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,254 admin
    HONDO said:

    Although W,E, Smith discontinued printing film posters in 1960 it is uncertain if they closed down altogether or continued to do general printing. I would love to know  but no luck in finding this out - yet.                                                                                                                                       

    http://vintagemoviepostersforum.com/discussion/1015/w-e-smith/p1
    David
  • JohnJohn Member, Dealer Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    HONDO said:

    Although W,E, Smith discontinued printing film posters in 1960 it is uncertain if they closed down altogether or continued to do general printing. I would love to know  but no luck in finding this out - yet.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

    From David's link, it looks like W.E.Smith was still printing in the 60s. Do you think that there is a possibility that Women Are Weak could have been the last movie poster that they printed for the release in 1962?
    John

  • JohnJohn Member, Dealer Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    HONDO said:


    John said

    All of the late 50s Richardson daybills were printed by W.E.Smith with one exception that I  can find. Vertigo was printed by Robert Burton.


    Apart from Vertigo although I cannot at present locate my Robert Burton/ Richardson / Paramount list here are some titles printed by Robert Burton I remember. -

    The Black Orchid

    The Geisha Boy

    King Creole

    Quantrill's Raiders

    Rock - A -Bye Baby

    Also I cannot read the printers name but possibly St. Louis Blues & The Matchmaker are  Robert Burton as well.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      

    Thanks for that. It looks like Matchmaker is Robert Burton from the image I have seen.

    John

  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    John said:
    HONDO said:

    Although W,E, Smith discontinued printing film posters in 1960 it is uncertain if they closed down altogether or continued to do general printing. I would love to know  but no luck in finding this out - yet.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

    From David's link, it looks like W.E.Smith was still printing in the 60s. Do you think that there is a possibility that Women Are Weak could have been the last movie poster that they printed for the release in 1962?
    Yes I think it is possible but it could be or it may have been The Bellboy or Man From God's Country or Five Branded Women released in Sydney 22 / 7 / 1960 or even another title released slightly earlier in 1960. From the time printed to the release date would depend on a suitable and available theatre to open it in. I have an article somewhere from around this time saying there was far too much product and not enough cinemas to screen the product in due to long runs of some films and there was a backlog of product waiting to be released. On occasions it would take a year or sometimes two  to secure a first release play date in the major cities. This is a reason too for why the independent film distributors such as Ray, IFD, Regent and Blake struggled to secure releases for some of their inferior product at times. 
    Lawrence
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    HONDO said:
    John said:
    HONDO said:

    Although W,E, Smith discontinued printing film posters in 1960 it is uncertain if they closed down altogether or continued to do general printing. I would love to know  but no luck in finding this out - yet.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

    From David's link, it looks like W.E.Smith was still printing in the 60s. Do you think that there is a possibility that Women Are Weak could have been the last movie poster that they printed for the release in 1962?
    Yes I think it is possible but it could be or it may have been The Bellboy or Man From God's Country or Five Branded Women released in Sydney 22 / 7 / 1960 or even another title released slightly earlier in 1960. From the time printed to the release date would depend on a suitable and available theatre to open it in. I have an article somewhere from around this time saying there was far too much product and not enough cinemas to screen the product in due to long runs of some films and there was a backlog of product waiting to be released. On occasions it would take a year or sometimes two  to secure a first release play date in the major cities. This is a reason too for why the independent film distributors such as Ray, IFD, Regent and Blake struggled to secure releases for some of their inferior product at times. 
    Are there examples where the poster was printed but due to backlog the plug was pulled and never screened?
  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector

    Another good question Sven. I don't believe any films passed for public exhibition and had posters designed would have not received some sort of limited release somewhere. Sometimes certain films had a first release in a city suburban theatre or even occasionaly in the country somewhere.

    An interesting case is Hero's Island ( 1962 ) which received its first release in  N.S.W. at a  country venue and only received a Sydney city release sometime after that.

    Lawrence
  • JohnJohn Member, Dealer Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter

    How about the Day the Earth Stood Still reissue? From memory, posters were printed for the re release but it never actually happened. Supposedly, that was why the ones the turn up are all mint. I think it might have been Phil Edwards who knows about this but not entirely sure. Do you have any information on that one and whether it was actually re released or not?

    John

  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    John said:

    How about the Day the Earth Stood Still reissue? From memory, posters were printed for the re release but it never actually happened. Supposedly, that was why the ones the turn up are all mint. I think it might have been Phil Edwards who knows about this but not entirely sure. Do you have any information on that one and whether it was actually re released or not?


    The great questions keep coming.

    I have contacted Phil Edwards, the N.Z. Government film classification people and spoken to many others as well as yourself over the years and have researched the Australian Classification database as well as newspaper classified advertisements plus I have  sighted a daybill that I believe proves the film received a release of some sort  being either 35mm or 16mm.   

    Since I joined VMPF I have been planning to raise the issue at hand but I have kept putting it off and leaving it in the too hard basket as it would mean that  I would have to spend some considerable time putting my thoughts and facts together. Seeing it has been raised by John and answering questions on daybill is why I originally started this thread I will answer John in a detailed reply but it may take some time.

    Before I tackle this assignment I would be more than pleased to hear from anyone on their thoughts and their answer to John's question ?

    If Mark ( the John Wayne one ) who seems to know all about Australian 16nn releases sees this please let us know what you know about an Australian 16mm release ?


    Lawrence
  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    John                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
    From David's link, it looks like W.E.Smith was still printing in the 60s. Do you think that there is a possibility that Women Are Weak could have been the last movie poster that they printed for the release in 1962?
    I know I answered this earlier but I am wondering when you ask about when the last daybill was printed that seeing daybills were worked on three at a time that perhaps we should possibly be even looking for the last three daybills designed and printed or perhaps two or even one depending how many were left to print from their scheduled final committed number they had to complete before they stopped production.
    Lawrence
  • theartofmovieposterstheartofmovieposters Member Posts: 4,032 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    My understanding is DTESS re releases are all unused because that re release never happened.   Will dig up old emails from Phil to see if there is more info.
  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    John said:

    How about the Day the Earth Stood Still reissue? From memory, posters were printed for the re release but it never actually happened. Supposedly, that was why the ones the turn up are all mint. I think it might have been Phil Edwards who knows about this but not entirely sure. Do you have any information on that one and whether it was actually re released or not?


    The Day The Earth Stood Still wasn't submitted for classification on 35mm in Australia or New Zealand. It was however submitted for registration in Australia on 16mm and was passed with a G classification on 1 August, 1979.

    Phil Edwards informed me earlier this year that he had heard from a Fox employee who worked there at the time and who seemed to recall late 1970s and that the daybill was produced for a 35mm re-release in Australia that never happened. Phil also mentioned that he suspected due to the success of Star Wars released in Australia  27 / 10 / 1977 and a planned remake on a  proposed 1978-1979 schedule  and a huge revival in all things science fiction that this may have influenced the planned re-release of the film.

    The question is were the daybills printed for the planned 36mm re-release, for 16mm distribution only  or a combination of both, Whatever the reason for the printing of the daybill and there may have been at least 500 we know that none were distributed for a 35mm re-release as it didn't happen. A good question  is why didn't if go ahead and I think it is odd  after going to the trouble of printing the daybills, if they were of course printed for the 35mm re-release?

    A lot is made of all copies of the daybill poster of this film being sighted being in excellent / mint condition. Ves previously mentioned this in her comment.

    I'm thinking if daybills were distributed for 16mm screenings of this film, and they were as a rule as I ran a film society using 16mm equipment and daybills and sometimes one sheets normally came with the ordered film, that some of the posters should be in a worn condition in the marketplace so where are the used copies. Well I am glad I asked as I have sighted a The Day The Earth Stood Still  daybill which had been written along the bottom of the poster with the words '' plus Cattle Empire Friday night''. As Cattle Empire was a 1958 film surely this would  then support the fact that  the 16mm release did happen. 

    If the daybill was printed with say 500 copies or maybe more and with only a 16mm release using up some of the posters then it stands to reason there must be a lot of copies of the daybill in existence.

    Lawrence
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    edited January 2016
    Should daybills exist for Frozen Ghost 1944? Ie it was released in Australia and material printed


  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    The Frozen Ghost was released in Australia by Universal International in the mid 1940s and there would have been a daybill. one sheet  and a lot of other material printed. Let's face it some titles are rare and material hasn't surfaced yet. Where is Australian material from the first Australian release of Night Monster from 1942 a title also from Universal International ? This is one horror title that springs to my mind and there is bound to be others as well.
    Lawrence
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
  • MarkMark Member Posts: 620 ✭✭✭ Daybiller

    If not discussed already, here are a couple more anomalies for Hondo to research.

    1. Annie got your gun. Near identical daybills by W.E. Smith & Simmons Ltd.

    2. Doctor at sea. 2 x daybills by W.E. Smith. One sheets by W.E & Chromo Print. (I actually sold the Chromo as 1st release a long time ago but most likely in error).

    Regarding DTESS, I have taken the daybills -with pin holes - from cinema finds, so the posters were definitely sent out. Not listed in 16mm catalogue or updates to approx. 1981. Was a '70s release for sure. Considering 2001 had come out, DTESS was well and truly dated, so probably a flop.

    That's the news from the Blue Mountains!





  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 5,158 admin
  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    edited February 2016
    Mark said:


    If not discussed already, here are a couple more anomalies for Hondo to research.

    1. Annie got your gun. Near identical daybills by W.E. Smith & Simmons Ltd.

    2. Doctor at sea. 2 x daybills by W.E. Smith. One sheets by W.E & Chromo Print. (I actually sold the Chromo as 1st release a long time ago but most likely in error).

    Regarding DTESS, I have taken the daybills -with pin holes - from cinema finds, so the posters were definitely sent out. Not listed in 16mm catalogue or updates to approx. 1981. Was a '70s release for sure. Considering 2001 had come out, DTESS was well and truly dated, so probably a flop.

    That's the news from the Blue Mountains!


      Boy do I love these type of questions. Makes my day. Back shortly with my reply.
    Lawrence
  • HONDOHONDO Member, Wizard of Aus Posters Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    edited February 2016

    Mark said:


    If not discussed already, here are a couple more anomalies for Hondo to research.

    1. Annie got your gun. Near identical daybills by W.E. Smith & Simmons Ltd.

    2. Doctor at sea. 2 x daybills by W.E. Smith. One sheets by W.E & Chromo Print. (I actually sold the Chromo as 1st release a long time ago but most likely in error).

    Regarding DTESS, I have taken the daybills -with pin holes - from cinema finds, so the posters were definitely sent out. Not listed in 16mm catalogue or updates to approx. 1981. Was a '70s release for sure. Considering 2001 had come out, DTESS was well and truly dated, so probably a flop.


     
    I have always wondered about the Simmons daybill of Annie Get Your Gun being an original. Now that I have been informed about a W.E.Smith daybill as well and there happened to be one on eMovieposter.com that I have checked out. No definite proof but I firmly believe the following.The W.E.Smith  version is the original daybill as they were the preferred printer at that time. Simmons printed a good number of MGM daybills in 1956 which co-insides with a 1956 re-release around Australia of Annie Get Your Gun. The Simmons version is more available to obtain than to the rare W.E.Smith version and usually re-release posters are more easily available.

    The Doctor At Sea W.E.Smith one sheet would be the original poster printed for the Australian release which was in Sydney on the 29th of December, 1955. As Chromoprint only printed film posters for around three years in the late 1950s and this started a around a year after when Doctor at Sea was released in Australia the Chromoprint version I believe wouldn't be for a re-release but it most likely it is a second printing that occured  sometime after the original release and between 1957 and the end of 1959. My feeling earlier that later.

    The Day The Earth Stood Still with a daybill with Cattle Empire hand written on as the supporting film along with the pin holes on others from cinema finds says to me a re-release in very late 1979 when the film was classified for screening on 16mm and the early eighties on 35mm ( probably had a few prints ) and 16mm on a very limited basis. No record of any cinema screenings in newspaper advertisements which are very limited in accessing for this period of time.
    Post edited by David on
    Lawrence
  • PanchoPancho Member Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ Daybiller
    More of a modern question: why did daybills become so sporadic in the 1990s / 2000s? There seems to be no pattern to their release. For example, there are daybills for 'Scream' (1996) and 'I Still Know What You Did Last Summer (1999), but not for 'Scream 2' or 'I Know What You Did Last Summer' which were both 1998. Plus a lot that I have got my hands on appear to be early 'teaser' style posters - usually no rating, just a note that the film is yet to be classified. I'm guessing the answer may be simply that cinemas were moving to standard one sheets, but would be interested in your thoughts.
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