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Paperback vs. Linenback

CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
So I am in a debate on facebook about what are standard backing procedures: regarding paperback vs. linenback.

My understanding is that almost all one sheet sized posters are linenbacked and that if a restorer is capable of completing both procedures (paperbacking and linenbacking), that inserts, half sheet, window cards, and lobby cards are paperbacked. 

I have also assumed from my experiences, that paperbacking is the preferred method for card stock items due to the thickness and rigidity of the original materials.

However some inserts/half sheets are on very thin card stock and could easily accept both procedures.

But, when considering the thicker card stocks, my fear would be that, if linenbacked, and rolled the previously addressed creases would return to some degree.  Versus a flat paperbacked effort.

Other than this assumption, does anyone have definitive answers why card stock items are paperbacked vs. linenbacked?

My other assumption is that there isn't a lot of information on paperbacking and many restorers aren't comfortable or knowledgable on it.  So it is simply easier to sell linenbacking for these items.

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,181 admin
    edited June 2014
    Only thing I find with paperbacking to linenbacking is the handling - with linen backed posters you can certainly throw them around and there is always that extra border that allows you to grab the non poster part, paper backing can only run to the edge?
    David
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
    I am not sure about that either.  The more I think about it there are two and probably three methods.

    First is to paperback with masa and trim to the edge.  You can't really leave it untrimmed as the masa is to thin.

    Second would be the traditional method of using an acid free board (most likely thicker card stock) wheat pasting the masa to that piece and the poster to the masa and trimming to the edge.

    Third could be similar to linenbacking where you would leave an inch or so of edge from the second method. 

    I wonder if Bruce could comment on if he has seen all three versions...  I remember seeing a magazine add paperbacked with an edge.

    To me it is all about the rolling post restoration...   
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,181 admin
    My Jimi Hendrix is paper backed more in keeping with your option two - very board like.
    David
  • BruceBruce Member, Captain Movie Poster Posts: 827 ✭✭✭ Daybiller
    I have had a long day, so I can only post a little now, but will try to post more later.

    TRUE paperbacking (the kind museums do) is just backing the item onto a lightweight rice paper (to hold it together) and then missing areas ("voids") are carefully filled without painting over areas that are there.

    Done well, this is fantastic, but the result is a poster that has to be handled carefully and can be ripped or torn or creased.

    The poster world kind of "paperbacking" would better be called "boardbacking". There is nothing wrong with it, but it involves a MUCH higher degree of restoration than the above method of paperbacking.

    I certainly have seen more backed movie posters than just about anyone in the world! Ask specific questions and I will try to answer them.
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  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 3,885 admin

    I believe I read somewhere that to linenback a Window Card would cause the linen to become wavy and buckle because it is lighter weight than the WC. Is this true? Has anyone tried or has a WC that is linenbacked?

     

    I am new to this, but want to conserve and support two WC's that I have and not sure if they can be backed on canvas...Thanks!

  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
    Just back em with masa...  Buy some holytex, past that to you table, then paste the masa, then the poster...  Or you could insert museum board between that...  Table/holytex (you may not even need it)/museum board/masa/poster....
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
    And I have backed a 1/2 sheet with thicker card stock and had no issues...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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  • SvenSven Member Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    Some restorers like to peel back a layer or two of the back of the window card others it still gets acid burn/ Browning in the front, perhaps for the deacifyer to better penertrate...thoughts??
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
    Man, I am stumped tonight... Always learning something.  I've not seen a window card that can be peeled... Unless it was already mounted.  But I am no window card expert.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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  • SvenSven Member Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    Sorry peeled and then mounted to paper.. I was asking why it cost so much to back a window card and that was the reason...peeling takes more time
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 3,885 admin
    Charlie said:
    Just back em with masa...  Buy some holytex, past that to you table, then paste the masa, then the poster...  Or you could insert museum board between that...  Table/holytex (you may not even need it)/museum board/masa/poster....

    Thanks! What purpose does the holytex serve? Does it get peeled off after it has dried? I think I remember from your thread when you paperbacked an Insert you use holytex...should I get a heavier masa? So masa is always the neutral barrier between the poster & the paper/holytex?
  • The_benne666The_benne666 Member Posts: 34 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    Hi guys,
    I'm gonna need some help here on an issue.
    I have recently purchased a 'The Sting' poster but it was in very bad shape (tears, pinholes, tape,...) And I've been looking for someone in Belgium to restore this beauty.
    Now, I have found someone that says he can fully restore the poster and also paperback it if I wanted to (he says he doesn't do linen backing).
    Now, I've read on the internet that usually 1 sheets are linen backed and not paper backed (also, you can't roll the paper backed posters.)
    Is that true? So should I get it paper backed or just restored?  
    The guy seems to know what he's talking about because he fixes everything... 
    Thanks 4 the help!
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin

    Now, I've read on the internet that usually 1 sheets are linen backed and not paper backed (also, you can't roll the paper backed posters.)

    Who says you can't roll paperbacked posters???  Depends on the paper.  If you paste the paper to a cardboard support then yeah you can't roll it.  If it is pasted to a sulphite or mulberry paper that is temporarily attached to a support, the paper/poster can be lifted and folded.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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  • The_benne666The_benne666 Member Posts: 34 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    Charlie said:

    Now, I've read on the internet that usually 1 sheets are linen backed and not paper backed (also, you can't roll the paper backed posters.)

    Who says you can't roll paperbacked posters???  Depends on the paper.  If you paste the paper to a cardboard support then yeah you can't roll it.  If it is pasted to a sulphite or mulberry paper that is temporarily attached to a support, the paper/poster can be lifted and folded.
    it was written on the website backingtothefuture... I try to read as many comments as possible wich is quite hard when ur a newbie :)
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
    That should say rolled not folded... oops
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • MirosaeMirosae Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭ Daybiller

    I believe I read somewhere that to linenback a Window Card would cause the linen to become wavy and buckle because it is lighter weight than the WC. Is this true? Has anyone tried or has a WC that is linenbacked?

     

    I am new to this, but want to conserve and support two WC's that I have and not sure if they can be backed on canvas...Thanks!

    I have a WC which was linen backed. I couldn't resist and bought it "Singin in the rain" . You are correct. It was wavy when I  bought it but after few days under a huge heavy box it was OK. It looks gorgeous all framed up on my wall!!
    Rosa -
    Love some paper
  • BruceBruce Member, Captain Movie Poster Posts: 827 ✭✭✭ Daybiller
    Charlie said:

    Now, I've read on the internet that usually 1 sheets are linen backed and not paper backed (also, you can't roll the paper backed posters.)

    Who says you can't roll paperbacked posters???  Depends on the paper.  If you paste the paper to a cardboard support then yeah you can't roll it.  If it is pasted to a sulphite or mulberry paper that is temporarily attached to a support, the paper/poster can be lifted and folded.
    it was written on the website backingtothefuture... I try to read as many comments as possible wich is quite hard when ur a newbie :)
    There are two types of paperbacking. One is on very thin rice paper, and the poster can easily be rolled afterwards. But if you roll it "image in", the the folds start to reappear, so they should always be rolled "image out".

    The other is on a heavy board backing, and that CAN'T ever be rolled.

    Why the two types? The first is used for posters that need little or any restoration. The second is used for ones that need more substantial restoration, and the heavier backing allows for more restoration and the disguising of such restoration.
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  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 3,885 admin
    Mirosae said:

    I believe I read somewhere that to linenback a Window Card would cause the linen to become wavy and buckle because it is lighter weight than the WC. Is this true? Has anyone tried or has a WC that is linenbacked?

     

    I am new to this, but want to conserve and support two WC's that I have and not sure if they can be backed on canvas...Thanks!

    I have a WC which was linen backed. I couldn't resist and bought it "Singin in the rain" . You are correct. It was wavy when I  bought it but after few days under a huge heavy box it was OK. It looks gorgeous all framed up on my wall!!
    Cool Rosa! Glad it worked out for you. Think I originally read about WC's making the linen wavy in poster mountain site. I've linen backed three half sheets & no "waviness"-need to try to paperback a HS soon. 
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
    I've been having some trouble with a recent observation on EMP.  After paperbacking some daybills with mulberry paper I am in love with the method versus linenbacking.  I found that it kept the poster having a more original feel and it even looked better IMO.  

    I am wondering what you guys think... What would be your preference if two posters one linenbacked and one paper backed were available.  Would you pay more for the linenbacked copy?

    EMP statement...

    Note that this poster has been paperbacked. What is paperbacking? This means the poster was backed onto a paper backing (acid-free), that is similar in feel to that of the original poster (except somewhat heavier). It is a similar process to linenbacking, except that most collectors use linenbacking for one-sheets and paperbacking for half-sheets, inserts, window cards, and lobby cards.  Note that because this poster was paperbacked onto a thin paper backing, it can be sent rolled (however, it will be rolled with the image outward, because paperbacked posters should always be rolled that way, while linen posters are always rolled with the image inward), and it will likely need to be sent in a 6" tube, because rolling it more tightly might damage the poster.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,181 admin
    Each way bet for me.


    David
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 3,885 admin
    What type of poster are you referring to?  

    I think the  dilemma that I face in this question, and possibly others is that if you've never felt a poster that has been paperbacked on Mulberry paper whether it's an insert or half sheet or lobby card then the frame of reference is not there. 

    And if paper or compound infill or other major restoration is needed does mulberry paper support that as well as linen backing? 
  • BruceBruce Member, Captain Movie Poster Posts: 827 ✭✭✭ Daybiller
    There are three kinds of paperbacking (at least). One is a very thin paper that is normally only used for one-sheets or other thin paper posters. This always results in a rollable poster.

    Another is a medium weight paper, which some restorers use for half-sheets inserts, and window cards, and it gives a more substantial backing, but when you hold it to a strong light, you can see through it. This can sometimes result in a rollable poster.

    The last is a REALLY heavy weight "paper", which is really a heavy board. Some restorers (and dealers and auctions) love this, because you can't see through it with the strongest light, and after they dip the front of the poster in paint (spray painting over ALL the solid areas) you can't tell what was done, and sometimes new collectors think such a poster is in FAR better condition than it really was.

    I hate this last method (which is usually used to hide major defects) and when I get a poster like that, I have been saying "There is so much heavy restoration on this poster that it is hard to tell what (or how much) was done.

    Incidentally, Charlie, what you quoted above is just one of the paragraphs we put on paperbacked posters. It depends on which method was used.

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  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
    edited March 2017
    The statement was from a half sheet but Bruce is auctioning some other One Sheets.

    You are probably correct in your assumption that most had not handled a paper backed poster.

    I also don't think a paper backed poster would act any differently with major restoration than linen.  The only concern to me may be that the poster is very similar to the original so if you mishandle it it will bend and link like a regular unbacked poster.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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  • theartofmovieposterstheartofmovieposters Member Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    Charlie said:
      The only concern to me may be that the poster is very similar to the original so if you mishandle it it will bend and link like a regular unbacked poster.


    This was going to be my question.  Only stuff I have paperpacked are a couple of 40x60 and they would be on midweight paper is my guess.

    I dunno, with the fragile early daybills, I would be scared that just paperbacking it, my clumsy self would be more inclined to damage it!

  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 3,885 admin
    I need to buy some mulberry paper & back some daybills to see exactly what Charlie means by the more "natural feel". Masa Paper is pretty stiff. 

    @Charlie- do you trim the excess Mulberry paper to the edge of the daybill? Or leave a small border as one would for linen?
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,218 admin
    I leave the same as linenbacking on thinner paper and trim to edge on card stock.  My only thinking on this is that for the thinner stuff having an edge helps protect it but it would do the same for card stock.  So yeah...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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  • theartofmovieposterstheartofmovieposters Member Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector

    Ok, so the wonderful Charlie paperbacked a daybill for me...my first non cardstock poster on paper that I have ever handled.

    I dunno if I like it...it seems more rigid and fragile to me now!  I'm clumsy as anything, and I think I would probably damage them more.

    I feel like I can be a bit rougher with my linenbacked stuff. 

    BUT, there is something about the way it looks I really like!  Not sure if this is just my poster (its a fugly poster but I love it)...I can't put my finger on it.

    They are flattening out now, but will post some pics and more comments later when I can handle them a bit better.

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