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Ask Your Linenbacking & Restoration Questions

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  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,389 admin
    Thought I would throw this out there.  Here is a picture of a washing station located in the Lunder Conservation Center.
    Untitled

    http://americanart.si.edu/lunder/tools.cfm

    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,292 admin
    Well done Charlie and Mark, you've lured another into your evil lair.

    Congrats Jay on giving it a go, braver man than me.
    David
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    edited June 2017
    Charlie said:
    Thought I would throw this out there.  Here is a picture of a washing station located in the Lunder Conservation Center.
    Untitled

    http://americanart.si.edu/lunder/tools.cfm

    Looks pretty much like my set up....cept for a few minor differences.... ;)
    *Wonder what those sink dimensions are?.... 
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,292 admin

    Looks pretty much like my set up....cept for a few minor differences.... ;)

    :rofl:

    David
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    edited June 2017
    David said:

    Looks pretty much like my set up....cept for a few minor differences.... ;)

    :rofl:

    :angry:                                                
                                             
  • action1963action1963 Member Posts: 5 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    What are the most reliable restoration places.
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,389 admin
    Reliable and Restoration have many meanings...

    Reliable in regards to will you get your stuff back in a reasonable amount of time:

    Dario - Vintage Movie Art
    Mario - Lumiere
    John - Poster Mountain

    Restoration in regards to having a poster coming back looking like a new penny:

    Same as above

    Restoration in regards to expecting some conservation (i.e. more reversible and conservative adhesives)

    Dario - Vintage Movie Art (he uses some acrylics for painting but from what I know he is as close to conservation as they get with pastes)
    John - Poster Mountain (ask for conservative adhesives vs. wall paper paste and that he not have his artist use color pencils vs. water color pencils)


    Some other include the backing to the future guy - but he specifically states he uses fixatives (or at least he use to) on his web page.

    If you want more European style - the guy in Katy TX is more a minimalist versus most.



    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,389 admin
    David said:

    Looks pretty much like my set up....cept for a few minor differences.... ;)

    :rofl:

    :angry:                                                
                                             
    Anger will not change your situation.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,389 admin
    Charlie said:
    Thought I would throw this out there.  Here is a picture of a washing station located in the Lunder Conservation Center.
    Untitled

    http://americanart.si.edu/lunder/tools.cfm

    Looks pretty much like my set up....cept for a few minor differences.... ;)
    *Wonder what those sink dimensions are?.... 
    I would say at least 3' x 5'...  I am really interested by the water filters.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    Charlie said:
    David said:

    Looks pretty much like my set up....cept for a few minor differences.... ;)

    :rofl:

    :angry:                                                
                                             
    Anger will not change your situation.
    Thank you, Master Po....
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    Charlie said:
    Charlie said:
    Thought I would throw this out there.  Here is a picture of a washing station located in the Lunder Conservation Center.
    Untitled

    http://americanart.si.edu/lunder/tools.cfm

    Looks pretty much like my set up....cept for a few minor differences.... ;)
    *Wonder what those sink dimensions are?.... 
    I would say at least 3' x 5'...  I am really interested by the water filters.
    Purified, deionized? I've never ordered the Cal Carb chips in replacement of the powder. Have you? 

    *One could call and inquire? I talked to a conservator at ASU in their archives dept, about paper preservation....need to get out there & see what set up they have/practices they perform. Would be great to tour a set up such as Lunder's....
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    Hey Charlie? What is Chartex backing? I'm viewing a few western posters on HA, and the description ends with Very Fine on Chartex. 

    I spent some time googling-was able to find it's a company that makes medical/anatomical posters? but not exactly what the substance "Chartex" is. 

    Thanks!
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    Hey Charlie? What is Chartex backing? I'm viewing a few western posters on HA, and the description ends with Very Fine on Chartex. 

    I spent some time googling-was able to find it's a company that makes medical/anatomical posters? but not exactly what the substance "Chartex" is. 

    Thanks!
    Never mind-HA changed description to "canvas."
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,389 admin
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,389 admin
    Heat activated canvas adhesive - interesting...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    Thanks.

     Interesting indeed. Briefly read the article-heat temps for removal seem narrow. 
  • DarioDario Member, Restoration Yoda Posts: 124 ✭✭ One-Sheeter
    Hi Guys,

    Chartex is not good. It is a adhesive membrane, used sometimes for dry mount.

    It is heat activated.

    It is extremely difficult to remove. Most likely the poster will not survive.

    It should be mentioned if a poster being sold is backed this way.

    Other than that, all is well and I hope all you guys are having a great day!

    Dario.
    image
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    Thanks for the info, Dario! 

    I first saw the Western posters listed on HA as Chartex and couldn't find info till Charlie listed his site and saw it was heat applied. HA later revised the description to say the posters were "on canvas."

    This info and Charlie's made me think it would be dicey to remove the canvas using an iron. Ive wanted to buy a poster backed on kraft paper or linen to try/attempt removal. Doesn't sound like Chartex is a good starting point. 

    Cheers!
  • MyTmouseMyTmouse Member Posts: 1 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    Charlie, I'm about to tackle my first poster restoration. As a fine artist, I've chosen a subject that will require information being restored, blemishes and scratches I intend to restore using my deft hand, color mixing skills and gouache paint. I've chosen gouache because it's opaque and water based and therefore can be reversed.

    Is this a good choice, or would you recommend another medium? My subject must remain a secret until I win the auction. The last thing I want is competition, lol.

    btw, correct me if I'm wrong, are you using wheat paste to back the posters with canvas? My first effort won't require it, but I will be tackling more ambitious projects in the future.

    Thank you, Ray
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,389 admin
    Yes Gouache is an excellent medium - it however wet and if you are not backing the poster it may produce some shrink/swell issues.  Not sure how to handle other than put a polyester sheet over the worked on area and then blotter with some glass plates to make it dry flat.  

    Yes lab grade wheat paste for backing.

    Best,

    Charlie
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
  • smusssmuss Member Posts: 11 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    I find myself Purchasing more older posters and am considering starting down the path to conservation ( thanks for all the great Info).  I would like to linen back for conservation but am not interested in restoration.  While the intent is for my own collection I was wondering how non restored linen backed posters are valued by collectors? If linen backed, is restoration expected?
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    Conservation is great! My thoughts are that a rare, deteriorating poster that is conserved by a deacidification and bleaching (if necessary) and not restored in some way would make it less valuable in price. 

    Most who purchase linenbacked posters, i think prefer some sort of restoration to get rid of unsightly blemishes, should there be any. So my answer would be yes, they seem to be more valuable to collectors if restored. 

    But, that's just my observations, others of course have more experience in this hobby. 
  • DarioDario Member, Restoration Yoda Posts: 124 ✭✭ One-Sheeter
    Hello,

    Based on 20 years of Linen backing and Conservation, I've seen/heard it all.

    So many collectors say " I am never going to sell my poster/s so I like it this way/my way. I.e. no restoration. 

    Sorry, but sooner or later it will sell, even if it is the most beloved poster in the collection. Seen it. Done it!

    My take. Do not personalize the poster. Have it restored to conform with what most dealer/auctions would consider a poster well restored to fetch decent money.

    Cheers,
    dario.
    image
  • theartofmovieposterstheartofmovieposters Member Posts: 4,032 ✭✭✭✭✭ Elite Collector
    Old doesn't mean rare.
    If its a poster that can be found relatively easily, then if you back and don't restore, your pool of buyers will be very small.
    It also depends who did the work.  Some restorers just don't know what the feck they are doing or do bad work.

    If its a poster that is quite rare, you might not have the option of restoration because you have no reference.
    I think Wil's Pilot long daybill is a great example.
    If he did nothing, it probably would have disintegrated eventually.
    He couldn't really get it restored because there was no reference.
    I'd be happy to pick that up in a heartbeat.

    On the flip side, I've refused to pay top dollar for backed posters because others are out there, and I wasn't very impressed with the work done.

    I would only do it if it really needs its.  Else leave it alone :)

  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin
    Agree, Wil's Pilot is a very cool poster. Only getting conservation and quite a bit missing on the bottom, it should look "off". But it doesn't, it looks great, intriguing, like there's a story behind the missing bottom portion. Great talking piece....
  • smusssmuss Member Posts: 11 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    Thanks for the tips.  I guess Ill try my hand at deacid and pressing first and see how that goes.
  • smusssmuss Member Posts: 11 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    Notes from a newbie:

    I tried deacidification and pressing but it was a lot of time and not a great product.  The posters were brighter and had less yellowing on the whites, but the posters still were not flat and had water drying distortions/wrinkling.  That was using air dry techniques and using blotter paper and pressing with 2 sheet of 3/4" melamine.  So I thought I'd try linen backing. Same work better end result. I used the techniques from these posts and YouTube videos.
    It took several ruined sheets of Masa, canvas, and a few old not valuable posters but I'm getting the hang of it.

    Newbie set up:
    2x2 wood frames with screws
    bathtub made with thick drop cloth plastic sheeting sandwiched between 2 wood frames screwed together
    Poly carbonate sheets from big box home improvement store, cut to size with straight edge and carpenter knife
    Calcium carbonate off Amazon
    Distilled water local store
    Masa and aytex from Talasonline-not cheap about $4.5 per US 1 sheet poster 43"x30yds (their shipping is high)
    Canvas from Blickart-not cheap about $4.25 per poster at a 50yd roll.

    Newbie mistakes I made:
    Make sure your work surface is smooth.  Any defects will transfer to the Masa and Poster
    Canvass needs to be mounted on frame.  I papered one canvass without mounting first -dont even try it.
    Canvass needs to be stretched hand tight, after it gets wet and dries it shrinks.
    Set the frame down so that linen is supported on a sold surface. Pressing a poster on unsupported linen separates the folds of the poster = bad outcome
    Dust is the enemy, I'm doing this in my wood shop and cant possibly over clean any surface.
    Plastic putty knife to scrape dried Masa before poster mount.
    Old wet posters and wet Masa paper tear easy.  Always keep wet paper supported by the plastic sheet.
    Only very light pulling on wet paper when adjusting position and flattening on canvas-again tears easy.
    Sandwich the poster between two plastic sheets and pressing the water out works great for a good flat finish
    Let it dry for a few days before removing from the frame.

    I hope this helps any new guys and didn't ramble too much.  After ruining about four posters I got the hang of it. The end product is worth the effort.
  • smusssmuss Member Posts: 11 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    A couple of questions for the experienced guys
    1. Paste Masa only, paste canvas only, or paste both?
    2. Light color repair on fold lines, is it needed and do you use pencil, marker, or paint (water color)?
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,167 admin

    smuss, 
    hard to get a sequence of steps from your post, but sounds good. 
    1-Stretch canvas around frame-manual heavy duty staple gun works.
     
    2-glue masa paper to canvas day or two before you wash you poster. _you will apply a thin layer of paste to both the canvas and masa paper-spray the masa paper liberally with water and allow the masa to "relax" prior to application of the paste-masa paper is much easier to handle when wet/soft. 

    3-use a brayer (and on a flat surface) roll out all the air bubbles if any after you laid down the masa. the masa must be perfectly smooth on the canvas as it dries. 

    4- after the masa has dried for 24-48 hours (it's usually dried within 12 but best to give it at least 24. Your canvas and masa are ready to receive you washed poster. 

    ***Post some pictures! We'd love to see your progress!
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,389 admin

    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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