What went wrong with my wet work? Funeral in Berlin poster funeral

Mandrake

Hi all, I have been doing some linen backing, and I ran into a rather distressing problem on my last one.  It seems the image/print of the poster is rubbing off and poster is essentially ruined (if someone knows how to salvage, please let me know!.)

            I’m posting a few pre- photos as well as post- in case anyone may be able to suggest why this happened / what I did wrong.

            First, I used some un-du solvent in spots to help with tape removal, before any wet work, along with eraser on some pencil writing.  Then,  I basically tried to follow the “wet work” that Charlie posted back in 2014.  I have a sort of soak tank with a water inlet and a drain for rinsing.  It’s a bit larger than a 1-sheet.  I fill it up with water so the poster is submerged in about 3 inches of water,  then drain it (so, there’s the filling action for “running water” and again when draining, but it’s not what I’d call running water across the poster; and the poster is between mylar while water is introduced and while drained.)   For chemicals I am using spray bottles and spraying the poster on mylar and then sandwiching in mylar for the duration of treatment.

            I’ve linen-backed perhaps 25 posters in the past year,  but about 20 of them were without any pre-treatment - taking a slow learning curve.  I’ve done the deacid bath 3-4 times, and this was only the 2nd time I used this bleach treatment (worked OK the 1st time).  So:

Deacid mixed up a 1 liter bottle, and then diluting into 2 liters as Charlie outlined.  The bleach I mixed up to approximately 0.2% solution sorta being conservative based on Book & Paper Group documentation to use less than 0.5%.  Using distilled water for both mixes.

So, for Funeral in Berlin 1 sheet,

(1) I sprayed deacid on both sides of poster to saturate and let sit between 2 mylar for 30 min.

Rinsed with tap water 1 time by filling and draining my soak tank (I think around 10 gallons of water the mylar poster sandwich ends up being submerged in.)  I carefully peel back the mylar one time after fully submerged so the water is in direct contact for a bit, then replace and slowly drain. 

(2) Spray bleach on in similar fashion between 2 mylar.  I probably left this one 15 – 20 minutes before 1 time rinse in same fashion.

(3) Spray on vinegar (acetic acid) – actually my sprayer broke on this and I ended up pouring from the bottle over the poster on mylar in the tank.  It sort of fizzed up a bit of white foam when I poured on the vinegar (but not major reaction, just kind of enough for me to notice, which I didn’t when I did this previously.). Left for 5 min, then rinse 1x.

(4) Deacid again 30 min, rinse/drain tap water 3 times and then final rinse by pouring a gallon of distilled water over the poster on mylar.

Then I proceeded with the linen backing – already had pasted masa on canvas prior day.  I laid the pasted poster onto the pasted masa using the mylar sheet, let rest a bit, squeegee the mylar and such.  Then remove the mylar sheet.

And my final task, lightly brush off the poster with a wet sponge – BOOM – I see color moving under the sponge, and stop.  And so I just let it dry like that a couple days. But when I tried to check if that print is still loose, it is.  If I take a damp cloth, it still wants to rub off.  Major bummer.  It had cleaned up nicely too, otherwise.

 

I had this happen to me one other time, months ago, on a Belgian poster from the 60’s that I did not pre-treat with chemicals at all.  Can’t recall whether I soaked that even in water at that time or just sprayed it wet before applying paste.

 

Any ideas on why this happened I’d really appreciate – I a bit afraid to commit something else to the process now.

Charlie

These might be to blame>>> (2) Spray bleach on in similar fashion between 2 mylar.  I probably left this one 15 – 20 minutes before 1 time rinse in same fashion. >>> This seems longer than I recall - only on spot stains would I leave bleach more than probably 5 minutes. Not sure your strength here as well. Could have possibly damaged some of the cellulose chains in paper.

This is not normal and I have never seen fizzing>>> (3) Spray on vinegar (acetic acid) – actually my sprayer broke on this and I ended up pouring from the bottle over the poster on mylar in the tank.  It sort of fizzed up a bit of white foam when I poured on the vinegar (but not major reaction, just kind of enough for me to notice, which I didn’t when I did this previously.). Left for 5 min, then rinse 1x.  >>> Not sure your ph levels here but if they all dropped too low it could damge the cellulose again and the paper and ink it was attached to gets loose. Your only prayer was to use the wheat paste to hold it all together.

Tip: Invest in a ph meter to help determine when your solution is too acidic.

Bottom Line... This Happened>>>> "And my final task, lightly brush off the poster with a wet sponge – BOOM – I see color moving under the sponge, and stop.  And so I just let it dry like that a couple days. But when I tried to check if that print is still loose, it is."

In general, you shouldn't wipe a wet poster. I know that Posterfix guy can be seen doing it but it is bad news especially for a bleached and possibly damaged poster.  At this point any flattening or rework would be with teflon tool or reapply mylar (I use to keep different size squares) and sponge/brush over that. BUT if your paper was flaing off already from cellulose damage mylar may have also taken some ink with it.

I once attempted to piece together that Jacqueline Bisset playboy ad (See Below) it comes in two pieces from a playboy magazine and made the same mistake and wiped off the entire image - no bleaching on this one. 

Charlie

I see where the 15 minute bleach may have come from:

"It's usually a 15 minute event, unless there are spots that need attention..." This would include the bleach, acetic, and set to deacidify steps for the bleach or added steps to basic backing. 

You really need to develop a feel for it based on your solution. I've gone way too far sometimes and have damaged posters before. Conservative is best. For example, I might not have even bleached your example as it was already pretty clean. The CaOH would have done a nice job. It really works best when there is a lot of acid tanning like a Sabrina OS - that type of paper gets ugly from tanning. 

All of my mentors/helpers told me numerous times to practice, practice, practice before backing something you value. I will regergitate that same message. If it is your first time bleaching - try it on a poster that your won't mind pitching if it goes wrong. If it is your first time trying a new method - practice on throw aways. 

You'll get it right but there are ebb and flows. I started super conservative and then ramped up with bleaching - ended up hurting some posters and came back to center before calling it quits.

Mandrake

Thanks for all the info Charlie - not wiping off the wet poster is a surprise to me so that's great info.  And, indeed, I didn't really NEED to wipe it off - it was already flat and nice - it's just what I have been doing all along (yes, after watching the posterfix guy months ago!  I did realize, thanks to you and others, that I shouldn't be taking lessons from him, but didn't realize that the wiping off was a bad practace I'd picked up.)  Yes, I should be checking the pH.  I bought a pH meter some months ago, but seemed to have trouble - inconsistencies - in calibrating it with the calibration liquids.  I should revisit.  This was not a super valuable poster to me, but it was one I'd rather not have ruined, and more important to me than others I've worked on.  But, your comments give me some motivation to get back at it -- not having any idea what to do differently was the worst thing.  Thanks again, I really appreciate your taking time to comment.

Charlie

I think maybe I'll do some research on the acetic. I can't find the 1:1 mix you spoke of. It also depends what your start concentration was from the bottle. I just used basic grocery store kind and diluted from there.  I do know they sell concentrate so need to figure the % for the solution.

Also not sure how you source your calcium hypo...

Send me a PM if you want to work some of it out.

Mandrake

Ya, I also used the grocery store vinegar, which was a 5% solution.  I did not see/find any reference to what the concentration should be.  Also VERY curious about a proper calc hypo source.  I'll try to figure out how to PM you.  Would love to discuss more sometime if you have the time

Bruce

I am not a restorer, but have handled tens of thousands of them, and my immediate thought was "too strong bleach" or "too concentrated vinegar" or both.

Mandrake

Thanks Bruce

Eisenhower

Mandrake-
i feel your pain. My very first poster/half sheet I wiped off excess paste & water with no Mylar on top. Big mistake as it pulled the colors from the image the poster was still wet, had been deacidified & bleached. I of course pm’d Charlie for help. 

-i can only guess when posterfix guy is wiping his posters with a sponge-he never soaked/deacidfied his posters so they’re dry and won’t bleed color. 

Ph strips are what I first used to test my cal hydroxide and cal hypo. My acidic solution is 50/50 water+Vinegar—-bubbling up sounds like an acidic solution that’s too strong maybe? 

Sorry for the loss-keep at it. Weak solutions to start. Keep posting - fun to see progress. It was a nice poster and looks like all your steps good! 

Mandrake

Hi Eisenhower, thanks for sharing your experience.  I appreciate the info and encouragement!