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Linen Backed movie posters - A Word of Warning

If you have linen backed posters or are thinking about getting posters restored you might be interested in this

http://www.ozefilm.com/linen-backed-movie-posters/

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Comments

  • I think it is a dangerous statement to place all restorer's who mix their own paste into one category.  I also stand by the assumption that most "prominant" restorers use wall paper paste because it is easier to prepare or is prepared.  Speed is what makes money.  The wallpaper pastes also have additives that provide for easy slip.  Wheat paste does not slip easy.  

    There are so many factors that cause foxing.  

    One thing that does concern me is that it is not only on the paper of the poster.  I would have jumped in to say that the restorer didn't do a good job of removing the acid in the poster. But since the foxing didn't stick to the poster, this does point to something either off with the water or the paste or even the canvas used.  My first bets would be that he didn't buffer the wheat paste or used tap water (not boiled/disinfected - ie. microbial still exist.) vs. distilled water to make the paste.  

    Or that he didn't properly turn over or store his wheat paste.  The following study showed that Microbial can start to form in as little as three to four days unless stored properly. Even in well stored conditions microbes can develop. Even if you place it in the fridge the adhesive starts to degrade.  The best thing to do is make a new batch every two days.  You can also add anti fungi but this is not an accepted practice.  Neither is wall paper paste.  If it was such a trend, I imagine the Smithsonian and other scientific institutions would have abandoned it.  I think the bottom line is there are many prominent restorer's who have no fucking clue what they are doing.  They are not University trained in conservation.  Just take a look at that list I prepared on the restorer family tree.  I bet you not one was University trained in conservation.  They all learned from a the guy before them.  I bet the scholars of the conservation world would cringe at what they do to our posters.

    Long-Term Storage of Wheat Starch PasteAuthor(s): Bruce F. Miller and William RootSource: Studies in Conservation, Vol. 36, No. 2 (May, 1991), pp. 85-92
  • Well, Charlie, I think your comments certainly confirm that there is a big risk with restorers who mix their own paste. There may be some who get the mix right but there is always potential for issues as you have described. There is no doubt that most of the prominent restorers use wallpaper paste. I agree with you that they partly do it because it saves time but they also use it because the mix is consistent and professionally prepared and proven to work.

    Interesting, too, to read your comment  "I think the bottom line is there are many prominent restorer's who have no #$^%!@ clue what they are doing."

  • I think most academic conservators would cringe at the idea of wall paper paste. In reality it is still a vegetable based paste with a bunch of chemical compounds added for various marketable properties. 

    These properties are not for conservation purposes and we may be reading a post one day on how the additive to enhance slip and preservatives have destroyed millions of dollars worth of posters from a certain restorer. 

    However, naturally occurring vegetable adhesives have been used much longer than the existence of movie posters themselves. It's all in the details...

     I would just advise everyone to ask for information on education and training. Just because a restorer has been doing it for 20 years and knows how to make a poster look good, doesn't mean it has been done with conservation in mind or that they even know what that entails.
  • Terrifying.

    I think I need to move even further North
  • Hey John,

    Can you snap a picture of the raw canvas on the back side?
  • John

    The ones I auctioned like that came from a single consignor, and I would bet they were linenbacked by the exact same person as the ones you have. Why not reveal the restorer's name?




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  • Yep, as Bruce says, the name would be good..
  • Charlie

    Here's a partial shot of the back of one of the posters...image


     

  • Bruce

    The purpose of the article was to highlight what can happen to linen backed posters over time. As it has been more than ten years since the posters were backed, I don't want to name the restorer at this stage.

  • So I've been digging and a second theory is that the restorer used a chemical to neutralize the raw canvas and didn't properly rinse this chemical out.  Something like Calcium Chloride for neutralization which is a salt known for hygroscopy - the property of attracting and holding water molecules.  Versus say Calcium Carbonate which requires bubbling to dissolve.  Or just mixed it into the wheat paste for neutralization.  When dry they returned to a salt and act as little siphons for moisture in the air.

    This combined with the wheat paste or by itself could have accelerated the the growth of the fungi either from dust etc. in the air or from dormant fungi in the wheat paste.  It has to be air related - I would say that the one poster where foxing has not shown significantly on the poster is a different type of paper (shiny and less air penetration) versus the one that has foxing on the main image which is probably more rough in texture and air easily penetrates that one.
  • My point is that it does NOT seem to be a widespread problem, or even a somewhat seen problem. I have seen it on posters from ONE restorer! Can you show me ones from another restorer?




    Here is a handy checklist to help tell eMoviePoster.com apart from all other major auctions!
    HAS lifetime guarantees on every item - IS eMoviePoster.com
    HAS unrestored and unenhanced images - IS eMoviePoster.com
    HAS 100% honest condition descriptions - IS eMoviePoster.com
    HAS auctions where the winner is the higher of two real bidders - IS eMoviePoster.com
    HAS "buyers premiums" - NOT eMoviePoster.com
    HAS "reserves or starts over $1 - NOT eMoviePoster.com
    HAS hidden bidder IDs - NOT eMoviePoster.com
    HAS no customer service to speak of - NOT eMoviePoster.com
    HAS "nosebleed" shipping charges - NOT eMoviePoster.com
    HAS inadequate packaging - NOT eMoviePoster.com

  • Bruce said:
    My point is that it does NOT seem to be a widespread problem, or even a somewhat seen problem. I have seen it on posters from ONE restorer! Can you show me ones from another restorer?

    I have no idea who restored the posters you auctioned. It is possible that it might have been the same restorer but also possible that it was someone else entirely. Do you know who restored the posters you auctioned?

    As far as it not being seen as widespread problem, it has certainly appeared before and I think it is something that people should be mindful of.

    You can probably imagine how I feel being stuck with great posters that have been ruined by this issue.

  • Hi John,

    Your poster/s are foxed over.

    Very sad to see this happening to your posters.

    You are in Australia.

    Do you live in an area/ part of Australia that have warmer climate and high humidity throughout the year?

    You mentioned a restorer in the 90's that did these.

    If it is Eugene Hughes He use wall paper past only. Sure-stick 5000 something like that?

    Best,
    dario.
  • Hi Dario

    Yes, it is a real pity that this has happened to the posters. I do live in a warm climate and it can be quite humid but the place I store the posters in is very dry and cool.

    Many restorers use Shur Stik or other brands of wallpaper paste. I would guess that the majority of movie posters that have been linen backed over the years have been restored using a wallpaper paste. I don't see that as being an issue.

    Eugene Hughes was the one who produced the video and he did advocate using wallpaper paste. The restorer I used mixed his own paste. That's as far as I will go in the elimination process.

    Your question about whether I live in a humid climate highlights the fact that these problems can occur. I think most people who get posters linen backed think they will not have problems with them. They would not consider the fact that living in a humid climate might mean that they will have issues at some point in the future.

    Regards

    John

  • Just as a side note foxing can and does occur in wallpaper. It has to be something accelerating moisture absorption... Not necessarily the wheat paste.
  • John,

    I believe it is a humidity problem.

    Probably the cotton canvas works a bit like a sponge?

    Take old Mexican paper. Always super dark, brittle acid burn, but I am yet to see one with foxing or I might have seen one?

    I would recommend a bunch of de humidifiers in the poster room.

    Not that it will reverse anything, but future prevention on other pieces.

    I guess Linen backing is not exact science or panacea.

    It would be good to let you restorers know were you're at, so the paste can be tweaked a bit with mold preventive solution.

    Best,
    dario

  • Personally, I think Dario is on the money here. I've had multiple posters that have been backed in a high humidity location and they tend to warp or bow for want of a better word when I get them at home and display them out of a frame. 

    In a dehumidified room they tend to relax and go back to their original shape. 
  • Well, as I said in the article, the place that I store my posters is very dry and an even temperature all year round. I specifically chose it for that reason. Additionally, other posters that I have had backed and stored there for many years show no issues at all.

    A lot of people have commented that the problem results from living in a humid climate. Are they saying that anyone living in a humid climate should not have linen backed posters? If that is the case, then the use of linen backing to restore posters is seriously flawed.

  • I hear you, John.

    Just trying to figure out what the heck happened.

    That is my most educated guess, but I can be wrong??

    Best regards,
    dario.

  • Dario said:
    I hear you, John.

    Just trying to figure out what the heck happened.

    That is my most educated guess, but I can be wrong??

    Best regards,
    dario.

    Yeah, its very difficult to determine the cause. It could well be humidity but my feeling is that it definitely has something to do with the materials that the restorer used.

    I heard something recently that might be of interest to you. A collector had a poster linen backed and framed. He lives in a very humid climate where mould is a big issue. The poster developed massive black mould all over it. The collector blamed the framer saying that when he cleaned the glass on the inside he must have left some moisture that caused the mould to develop. The framer acknowledged that that could have been a possibility.

    The funny thing is that the collector moved recently to a different part of town and put the framed poster in his garage. When he had a look at it six months later the mould was gone.

    I do want to say that I am still in favour of linen backing and will get more posters backed. However, I think it is worthwhile pointing out that sometimes things can go wrong.

    Regards

    John

  • Alright - here's an idea...let's all ship our posters for storage in Matias' nuclear bomb proof bunker!
  • John, do you know if there was any sunlight in the garage aka windows. That's very bizarre.
  • CSM said:
    Alright - here's an idea...let's all ship our posters for storage in Matias' nuclear bomb proof bunker!
    I like the way you are thinking. I can relocate the wife and kids if necesary... :-\"
  • 110x75 said:
    CSM said:
    Alright - here's an idea...let's all ship our posters for storage in Matias' nuclear bomb proof bunker!
    I like the way you are thinking. I can relocate the wife and kids if necesary... :-\"
    See folks - a true poster collector does whatever is best for the hobby even if it means getting rid of that pesky and financially draining family
  • Exactly!

    Now send me all your posters. It's not like I'm gonna consign them or something...
  • So I have been checking on humidity levels and it is recommended for paper that humidity be between 35 and 50...  If they get above 55 this is an environment for mold.  I have a dehumidifier in my poster room that I run during the summer and have been keeping it on 50.  I may need to drop it base on my research...

    John I think that the back placed something in those posters that assists in the absorption of moisture vs. the wheat paste being the main culprit.  In fact it could be that he didn't use traditional wheat paste but Methylcellulose of Carboxymethylcellulose (CMC) which are very Hygroscopic and can wik water from humidity faster than wheat paste.
  • Matt said:
    John, do you know if there was any sunlight in the garage aka windows. That's very bizarre.
    Not sure about this Matt but I guess it must be a much dryer environment.
  • Charlie said:
    So I have been checking on humidity levels and it is recommended for paper that humidity be between 35 and 50...  If they get above 55 this is an environment for mold.  I have a dehumidifier in my poster room that I run during the summer and have been keeping it on 50.  I may need to drop it base on my research...

    John I think that the back placed something in those posters that assists in the absorption of moisture vs. the wheat paste being the main culprit.  In fact it could be that he didn't use traditional wheat paste but Methylcellulose of Carboxymethylcellulose (CMC) which are very Hygroscopic and can wik water from humidity faster than wheat paste.

    The place that I store my posters is very dry with a fairly even temperature all round. It does seem certain (to me) that the restorer used something that encouraged the foxing and most probably the paste would have been the issue. It would be interesting to find out if there is some way of testing what happened. There is a microbiologist in Australia who is an expert in mould. They claim to be able to identify the source of the mould. I have used their services before in detecting how mould developed in an apartment but I'm not sure if their expertise would extend to linen backed posters.

    Charlie, I'm not sure if people who get posters linen backed are aware of potential humidity issues. It might be worthwhile if linen backers could give their customers a statement when they get posters backed outlining how posters should be stored.

    By the way, if you have any comments that you would like to add to the article you can do that directly through the site www.ozeiflm.com

  • edited July 2014
    How long was it before the mold foxing showed itself?
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