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Ask Your Linenbacking & Restoration Questions

CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
Since the boys were nice enough to recommend making this topic a category, I am reorganizing it (04/09/2014).  

I don't want to just spew information everywhere but address topics as they come up.  So your job is to ask me questions and I will take those questions in address them either in this thread or with a new thread on that topic.  Please also follow up and ask questions in any thread you desire.  This has replaced my introduction/overview which has been moved to it's own thread.

Best,

Charlie

Post edited by Charlie on
That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
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Comments

  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Re: Wet Work. How long do you bathe the poster? Daybills being thinner than one sheets would have less time in the bath?
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Great question. Not really, for say the initial soak and deacidification. I am at 20 to 30 minutes before my first rinse after the CaOH pretty much any poster. However, a byproduct of the CaOH turns the water yellow (maybe brown - I am color blind) and if that happens to a significant degree, I will do another 20 minute soak... Now for bleaching, it's all a big babysitting job, you never leave it. Unless, you want to be really conservative with a weak solution that takes a good hour to work... It's usually a 15 minute event, unless there are spots that need attention... There are actually two methods I use. Let me get to a desktop and I will discuss those.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Ok so the two methods. 

    Method 1: Complete Immersion

    This is taking the poster(s) and placing it in a tray, or the like, with a solution that has been calibrated to a pH level 10-12. Leaving it for the prescribed time.

    Here is the "left-overs" from a set of daybills I did for you.  I soaked them because they are smaller and the tray is manageable.

    image

    Method 2: Spray On Method

    This is taking the poster against a mylar sheet and after it had been completely made wet and excess water mechanically removed -  soaking the poster with by spraying a prepared solution (g/L) on both sides and sustaining the presence of that solution between two mylar sheets.  This is actually easier and more difficult because you have to respray in 5-10 minute intervals to ensure that the poster remains completely wet with solution.  If it does not remain completely wet discoloring may appear as the CaOH solution does act as a mild bleach as well...  It's a constant babysitting job but one where you are only preparing a 1L solution versus a 10 liter bath that is then pitched.  

    FYI here are some common deacidification methods that someone my find of interest:

    image


    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Love this shit. 

    So when you take the poster out of the bath. Do you lay it face down on a mylar sheet, then roll out the moisture?
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Oh and I remember you said one of the daybills had a fair bit of dirt/muck when you washed it. You can really see the discolouration of the water in that photo.
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
    Ickk, not sure I'd want to handle your posters Matt... :-S
    David
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Ickk, not sure I'd want to handle your posters Matt... :-S
    Hahaha, no I was surprised when Charlie sent me the photo long ago because the daybills i sent him were close to near mint and I didn't see any dirt in them. It just  consolidated the reasons for me to back posters.
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
    Matt said:
    Ickk, not sure I'd want to handle your posters Matt... :-S
    Hahaha, no I was surprised when Charlie sent me the photo long ago because the daybills i sent him were close to near mint and I didn't see any dirt in them. It just  consolidated the reasons for me to back posters.
    That's even worse, I got a pile of dirty ones on the filing cabinet behnd me that are pretty disgusting, IIRC you got a couple, Streetcar was one...
    David
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    The Streetcar dirt got washed in Canada remember....and came out a treat!
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    edited March 2014
    Matt said:
    Love this shit. 

    So when you take the poster out of the bath. Do you lay it face down on a mylar sheet, then roll out the moisture?

    The posters are always supported by mylar. It is simply lifted out by using the mylar. Another sheet of mylar is then used to make a poster sandwich. Using a window squeegee, the water removed by working it over the top mylar with the poster in the sandwich. I generally rinse first after deacidification to get the gunk out, then squeegee the water out by flipping the poster by the mylars... The art in all of it is taking the mylars off and on. Too fast you can rip the poster...

    I'll talk more about process in a little while.
    Post edited by Charlie on
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • rdavey26rdavey26 Member Posts: 676 ✭✭✭ Daybiller
    Step by step. Now you just need to make informational videos showing us the steps lol. Good work Charlie.
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    edited April 2014
    So the for "Wet Work"  I want to add more about process... 

    For the bleaching compound I use, Calcium Hypochlorite, it is important for the paper to already have alkalinity for it to work properly for a few of reasons. 

    One is that a deacidification bath before bleaching helps with foxing, sometimes it removes those little pest of spots before bleaching all together.
    Second is inactivates metal ions in the paper. Third is raises the pH so that when the acid byproduct lowers the pH degradation does not occur.

    So what does this mean?  Ever wonder why conservators charge more for bleaching?  

    Well if done by the following method one can figure it out right away - it's a lot of work!

    Step 1:  Deacidification with Calcium Hydroxide (Raises pH & give poster some alkalinity) 30 min
    Step 2:  Bleach with Calcium Hypochlorite (Reaction with substances in paper such as albumin, sizing, chromophores and etc. create chloramines and more acidic environment) As Desired
    Step 3:  Spray Acetic Acid to neutralize any unreacted chlorine and chloramines creating hydrochloric acid. 5 Minutes
    Step 4:  Deacidify the poster again with Calcium Hydroxide (you actually see solid Calcium Chloride leaving the poster)

    Washing between each step...

    I've not used Hydrogen Peroxide but have used Chloramine T but in literature it has fallen in disfavor because of the difficulty in removing it from the paper and the lack of control after rinsing. 

    What shall we talk about next time?
    Post edited by Charlie on
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Stretching the canvas on the frame and applying the masa paper, please.

    Do you use canvas pliers?

    image
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    I have a pair, but they are worthless. Unless you have sissy hands? 8-> A good pair of soft cowhide gloves and some toughening up of the top of your thumbs and your good to go...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Photoblog when I get to the house wife depending...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Right...so Mrs S does this step in the process. :-\"
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    =D>
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Matt made a funny...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • HumphreyBogartHumphreyBogart Member Posts: 924 ✭✭✭ Daybiller
    Great stuff Charlie. Should start ur own linen backing resto business..
    Reg
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    So I just finished off an Elizabeth Taylor daybill last weekend.  :^o

    And have a perfect example to show you Aussies...  

    So this is a daybill frame where a linenbacked poster has been cut down.  This one is jointed with pocket screws.  I can talk more about making the frames in another post.

    image

    I remove old linen and paper before putting on the new canvas.  I have in the past not done this and it always comes back to bite me. Here I made a slit to manually rip the canvas off the frame.

    image

    Old canvas off, now to clean up the remaining masa from the last backing.

    image

    If you leave this on here, it can get under the masa or the poster and cause bumps.  Worse it comes off and you don't see it in time. 

    image

    With all that removed, these are the tools I use.  An air compressor, finish nailer (w/ staples), and staples.  PSI set around 55 - you don't want the staples to go through the masa.

    image

    Here I have loosely fit the cotton canvas (12oz unprimed) over the frame.  I usually leave an inch to inch & a half over hang for grabbing onto.

    image

    I've pinned the canvas on two sides and trimed it. You can measure, but this is faster. Got my gloves out!

    image

    Here I have pinned all four sides and I am ready to stretch the canvas.  I had Mrs. S video the next part.

    image



    And viola!  A stretched canvas ready for Matt's daybill...

    image
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Great stuff Charlie. Should start ur own linen backing resto business..
    Yeah but then it would be work...  [-X


    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Wow!!! Just over three minutes. Impressive. :-O
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    When I really get going it's seems even faster. Especially if I have 5 or so already pinned... I start throwing frames around like stretching pizza dough... I only have to slow down when I don't have enough canvas to grab a hold of.  Sometime the crab cracker has to come out, but that usually when I am down to my last bit of linen and I am getting all I can out of it...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • HumphreyBogartHumphreyBogart Member Posts: 924 ✭✭✭ Daybiller
  • rdavey26rdavey26 Member Posts: 676 ✭✭✭ Daybiller
    Alright Charlie that is what I am talking about. Informational videos is the way to go for us people that do not understand all the slang for all the chemicals you use lol. All you need to do now is start from step one showing the stuff you use and how to obtain it and just be thourogh with each step not missing nothing. Great video by the way. :-c
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    I can't seem to find anyone in Australia that sells Masa paper. ~X(
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
    That's pretty cool stuff Charlie.

    I wonder why there is no clamp type frame system that you can lock the canvas in place and just wind out to suit. Maybe have a couple of extension bars to suit different sizes, seems to be very manual that set up
    David
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    I spoke with my Dad months ago about that. He says they do have that sort manufacturing process for pre stretched canvas frames sold in art and craft shops. Probably not viable for your Dario's in the world, but I see your point. Something homemade might be the ticket. Just getting it small enough to fit into a studio might be an obstacle?
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Matt said:
    I can't seem to find anyone in Australia that sells Masa paper. ~X(
    Isn't Australia near Japan? As in Japanese Masa paper...  Let me look.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
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