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Ask Your Linenbacking & Restoration Questions

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  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    David said:
    That's pretty cool stuff Charlie.

    I wonder why there is no clamp type frame system that you can lock the canvas in place and just wind out to suit. Maybe have a couple of extension bars to suit different sizes, seems to be very manual that set up
    One thing to consider is how long the posters sometimes stay on the frame.  For example I probably have 20+frames at this point.  I still have a poster that has been on a frame for almost a year because it is a stubborn restoration and mine.  How much would 20 of these frames cost?  Each say OS frame is about $10...  Lets say the stretch fame is $100...  Even if I was efficient and just had 10 frames, that is $1000.  Plus all the misc meterials; how will it hold up.  When it's completely wet will it rust? And so on and so on...  If all my frames are full, I hop in the truck by 2 pieces of 2x4 and go to town.  
    Matt said:
    I spoke with my Dad months ago about that. He says they do have that sort manufacturing process for pre stretched canvas frames sold in art and craft shops. Probably not viable for your Dario's in the world, but I see your point. Something homemade might be the ticket. Just getting it small enough to fit into a studio might be an obstacle?
    This could work but I would say I can do a frame in about 10-15 minutes, from start to finish.  The system would have to be automatic, like in a factory to make it worth it and then how many times am I going to stretch a canvas.  You could devise a system to stretch the canvas over a frame with weights I suppose, but then you need excess linen and you would have to still have to cut it to size and clamp it up.  It would also take up more space. The table I was working on is also where I do the masa, the poster to masa, the paper fills, etc.  Maybe for a shop like PM, but they still do it the old fashion way too.  
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
    One thing to consider is how long the posters sometimes stay on the frame.  For example I probably have 20+frames at this point.  I still have a poster that has been on a frame for almost a year because it is a stubborn restoration and mine.  How much would 20 of these frames cost?  Each say OS frame is about $10...  Lets say the stretch fame is $100...  Even if I was efficient and just had 10 frames, that is $1000.  Plus all the misc materials; how will it hold up.  When it's completely wet will it rust? And so on and so on...  If all my frames are full, I hop in the truck by 2 pieces of 2x4 and go to town.  
    Ahhh good point.
    David
  • DaprofDaprof Member Posts: 10 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    Hi all - 

    I could use some advice on my wheat paste - I'm not 100% happy with my results.

    I'm refrigerating my paste as soon as I finish cooking. It solidifies in the fridge (think dense Jell-O), then when I'm ready to use it I strain it into a blender, then blend with water until I get the proper consistency.

    I'm reading online that some folks just allow it to cool after cooking (no refrigerator) and then use it with little or no thinning? 

    I was trimming a few recent linen-backed posters down last night, and I pulled the masa away from the canvas on a few of the scrap edges in order to test the adhesive quality of my paste. It was similar to that of a weak piece of masking tape being pulled from a door or wall. 

    I'd appreciate any comments or advice! Thanks!
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    edited June 2014
    Hmmm....   :-?? 

    Maybe not cooking it long enough?  Maybe it is too wet ie. diluted?  Maybe you shouldn't pull on the masa...   :-\" 

    How about telling me if you are wetting the back of the masa before applying the wheat paste?  If the masa is dry it can wick the water out of the paste and make it weak, well dry.  Is the paste sticky or is it drying quickly after you put it down.  If you are doing your work outside, the wheat past can dry up on you during the summer.  Any of this ringing a bell?

    There are some studies on storage and resulting strength - I'll have to find them again.  I think it is fine to let it sit for an hour before putting in the fridge and not use it until the next day.  I would have to find to the articles on it though.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Daprof said:
    I'm reading online that some folks just allow it to cool after cooking (no refrigerator) and then use it with little or no thinning? 


    You can do this but you have to have one of those heat stirring deals.  It becomes more like a hard gel gloop that you can pull the adhesive from or blend.  But you still have to use water to get it flowing.  I was also told or there are instructions etc. not to use the paste until it cools.
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Are you using a chemical blend or from the grocery store...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    One more... Are you putting wheat paste on both the back of the masa and the cotton duct....  Kind of like back buttering a tile?
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • DaprofDaprof Member Posts: 10 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    edited June 2014
    Thanks guys. 

    I'm not really having problems as much as just looking for a comparison with others. 

    Definitely cooking long enough. Haven't been putting it on the canvas as well as the masa though, that may be worth trying. 

    So Charlie you are refrigerating and seeing the wheat paste solidify when it cools off like me? 

    I'm merely pulling it off scraps to test the strength, and was surprised that it wasn't as firmly fixed as I assumed it would be. For the record, any problems I've had in this area have been between the canvas and the masa, never the masa and the poster. 


  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    Yes, I do the same.  I do let mine cool to room temperature before putting in the fridge.  Try back buttering the masa.  I'll send you another tip in messages...
    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • DaprofDaprof Member Posts: 10 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    What a night and day difference with mylar as opposed to polyethylene sheeting! The rigidity makes such a difference when placing the pasted poster down. Now I'm finally at the point where I almost never have to touch the poster after removing the mylar. Couldn't imagine that before. 

    I also remember reading Dario in some thread somewhere mention that he tries to get the washed poster as dry as possible before applying the paste to the back. I experimented with this as well today and it makes a pretty remarkable difference. I actually used a brayer to roll all of the water off the poster before applying the paste, and the ones I did today went down so well that I almost didn't need to roll them afterwards — almost. 

    Finally getting to the point where I feel like I'm doing a decent job. 
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Nice one. May we see some photos at some point?
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
    Matt said:
    Nice one. May we see some photos at some point?
    What he said
    David
  • DaprofDaprof Member Posts: 10 ✭ Mexican Lobby Carder
    I'll see what I can do. I'm building up the courage to do some one-panels soon. I'll definitely post pics when I get to them. All the posters I've done so far are one sheets, and most of them are in awful condition — I'm still learning.  
  • CharlieCharlie Member, Administrator, Moderator, Game Master Posts: 6,152 admin
    edited April 2015

    I moved this here not to hijack the thread.

    "So generally speaking, for a light bleach, you would immerse the entire poster in the solution i.e. a bleach bath? And then it's a separate bath to deacidfy? Or it's one bath for the poster with the chemicals mixed to perform a light bleach AND deacidfy?

    If one were to back a poster onto linen without any bath, then technically that would mean the poster is not deacidfied  and not preserved ? Unless the wheat starch is used to deacidfy the poster?"


    You can call it a bleach bath or a bleach immersion.  The interesting thing about liquids and paper is that paper is very free and allows liquid to easily flow through it.  I had my table (and will again) on the porch with a slight pitch to allow for drainage.  In a total bit of luck, this facilitated all my washing and chemical applications because I could spray, say a bleach, and actually watch it work its way through the paper.  I did bleach soaks before but actually torched a few poster because it was hard to control.  With the spray and pitch, I can observe the bleach working and then essentially wash off the excess when it has done it's job and then immediately hit it with the reactant (acetic acid) to kill the remaining chemicals...  After 10 minutes or so and all the reactants have done their job you can then simply spray again the deacidification solution to neutralize the acid and wash out the reactant product (at times little white flakes will form).   

    Bleach and deacidify are two different applications.

    Yes unless you request and pay for deacidification, all they do is wash the poster and slap it on a stretched canvas.  I ranted about this a couple of years ago: 

    http://pulpfixin.com/blog/2012/11/17/emerging-necessity-of-a-conservation-support-and-restoration-scale/

    Why?  It takes another 20 minutes...  Wheat paste is not a conservative agent but can be a detriment if the wheat paste has not been buffered with Calcium Carbonate.  Wheat paste is slightly acidic in nature and the Calcium Carbonate mixed in with the wheat paste will "eat" acid as it forms over many, many years.  


    That second mouse in the bowl of cream we call life...
    www.movieposterworks.com  | MPW on Facebook
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    Thanks Charlie, makes sense and will read the other post. Appreciate the detailed reply !
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    Just got reply from Jaime..he includes wash and deacidfy as part of standard linen backing service..good to know.
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
    Sven said:
    Just got reply from Jaime..he includes wash and deacidfy as part of standard linen backing service..good to know.
    Well I guess technically so does Dario, compare the prices.

    David
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    David said:
    Sven said:
    Just got reply from Jaime..he includes wash and deacidfy as part of standard linen backing service..good to know.
    Well I guess technically so does Dario, compare the prices.

    Good point David , I've never compare the price..Wow big difference. Ever any dramas with customs in and out of Canada?
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
    Sven said:
     Ever any dramas with customs in and out of Canada?
    Yes....In.

    And frankly it's a pain in the freakn ass.
    David
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    David said:
    Sven said:
     Ever any dramas with customs in and out of Canada?
    Yes....In.

    And frankly it's a pain in the freakn ass.
    well would love to hear the detail and if avoidable or just bad luck. I would love to try Dario but sometimes I ship from the eBay seller in the US direct to restorer so hestitant they would get right. Of course trust EMP would get right.
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    Hey Charlie one of my posters has slight white overspray , from airbrush touch up, on a solid color on the poster. Any easy way to remove ? Hoping just q tip and chemical xyz..Thanks !!
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
    Sven said:
    David said:
    Sven said:
     Ever any dramas with customs in and out of Canada?
    Yes....In.

    And frankly it's a pain in the freakn ass.
    well would love to hear the detail and if avoidable or just bad luck. I would love to try Dario but sometimes I ship from the eBay seller in the US direct to restorer so hestitant they would get right. Of course trust EMP would get right.
    Nothing major, despite the fact one marks the documents as a "temporary import" Canadian Customs will still ping you for the duty (not every time just most). Technically you could then claim the duty on export  - but the paperwork.

    Of course you could always under declare the value of the poster, but then that means you can't insure it...

    Sometimes you got to bite the bullet.
    David
  • SvenSven Member Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭ Three-Sheeter
    And from darios work from what I have seen and the feedback that bullet is chocolate
  • DavidDavid Member Posts: 10,137 admin
  • EisenhowerEisenhower Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 3,726 admin
    Yeah, I've read on his site how to "get a package in" more easily. Some risk involved, but results seem to be worth it.
    Sven said:
    And from darios work from what I have seen and the feedback that bullet is chocolate

    Good one Sven!
  • MattMatt Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,853 admin
    Charlie did you ever make a video of applying the wheat paste to the back of the poster then transferring it to the canvas?
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